Pipes, tubes, and tunnels [Archive] - Loving Ferrets Online Community

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tropheusfreak

11-02-2006, 06:53 PM

Can I use big pvc pipe and elbows from the hardware store for tunnels? I can make a whole room full of tunnels and cool hideouts for what it would cost for 3 or 4 colored tubes from the pet store. They wouldn't be glued together or anything like that.

BadgersMama

11-02-2006, 07:00 PM

I know my husband knows the answer to this question as it has come up in the past. However, he’s out of town and won’t be back till Saturday. If I remember correctly, he said that the PVC pipe (plastic) gives off gasses so in his opinion it was not safe.

tropheusfreak

11-02-2006, 07:03 PM

BadgersMama

11-02-2006, 07:05 PM

I figured it was pretty much the same as the colored plastic thats used to make the ones in pet stores. Most cages are pvc plastic too. I know all our water lines in our new house are all pvc pipe you would think if there was bad stuff it would have bad results when animals drank the water.
I thought the same thing... Let me see if I can find the thread that was here a while ago on this topic.

EDIT: OK, I can't seem to find that thread. Hey Lisar or JRsMommy...can you help me find the thread that KD posted about plastics? I guess it's been a long day for me and I'm going cross eyed now. If you find it, post it here. Thanks!

tropheusfreak

11-02-2006, 07:26 PM

That would be great if someone could find it.

or how about the black pipe used for drainage. We used this stuff with the guinea pigs and rats when I was raising them.

JuniorsMommy

11-02-2006, 09:04 PM

Here's one I will see if I can find another.....

http://www.lovingferrets.com/showthread.php?t=435&page=2&highlight=Tubes

Edit: This is the only one I could find I will see if I can find any more tomarrow....

Megawee

11-03-2006, 03:28 AM

OH!OH!OH! I found it, maybe. I remembered a conversation about plexi-glass, but while I was looking around I found a thread titled PVC Pipe that had been started by Karybear. In it KokoDaddy refers to the dangers of PVC pipe. I don't know how to link but that should help someone find it and link it.

We have three cages that are connected by the black lateral line tubing that I think you are talking about. It works really well and the kids find it easy to move through. It's not see through like the ferret specific tunnels but it has holes in it and I can see them when they go inside to hide.

Sasy

11-03-2006, 06:27 AM

I think this is the one Megawee is talking about:

PVC Pipes (http://www.lovingferrets.com/showthread.php?t=435)

BadgersMama

11-03-2006, 06:37 AM

I think this is the one Megawee is talking about:

PVC Pipes (http://www.lovingferrets.com/showthread.php?t=435)
Ya, that's the same one JRs Mommy posted. There is another one... I think I know who started it... Let me go look now...

Sasy

11-03-2006, 06:41 AM

Ya, that's the same one JRs Mommy posted. There is another one... I think I know who started it... Let me go look now...

Ooops, when I followed her link it took me to page two...so I didn't catch that they were the same.

I'll search some too...

BadgersMama

11-03-2006, 07:02 AM

David,

Here is the thread I was thinking about. My bad... KD was talking about Plexiglas.

http://www.lovingferrets.com/showthread.php?t=191&page=2

tropheusfreak

11-03-2006, 07:14 AM

BadgersMama

11-03-2006, 07:19 AM

so would the pvc pipe be bad? Maybe I will call around to a few vets and ferret people to see what they say too. We used pvc pipe and the black pipe for guinea pigs, rats, and a few other animals with no problems but I don't want to use anything that would harm the little ferrets.
I'd do some calling around as you said. My rule of thumb is, if I'm not sure if something is going to harm my kids and I get mixed answers, I simply don't use it. It's always best to be safe the sorry. Let us know what you find out, as it's important for all of us to learn.

LISAR

11-03-2006, 07:21 AM

I got the gutter vents from home depot. They stretch and are flexible. They are not clear, but I can imagine what theyre doin in there.
Its fun to watch a head go in and a tail come out from the same spot!!
They seem to have a blast with it. It only cost about $6 at Home depot. I havent heard anything bad about it either.:D

JuniorsMommy

11-03-2006, 07:26 AM

This is what Kokodaddy has said about PVC pipes......

Please dont use PVC pipe. It is easily chewed and will fragment, plus PVC is known to gas to some degree.

tropheusfreak

11-03-2006, 07:26 AM

I called 5 vets already. They all work with ferrets and other exotics. I got 2 call backs already. They both said all plastic lets off fumes even their plastic cages. The colored plastic lets off more fumes than say clear or white plastic. They both said none of these fumes are known to be toxic to animals or humans thats why drinking water lines are now ran with pvc pipe. They said just watch if the ferrets slow down and get lethargic. If that happens move them away from the pipes and they will be fine. One of the vets said she uses dryer tubs, rain gutter type tubing, and the black slotted hose all with no problems. As long as we don't use any toxic glues we should be fine. I will post more when the other 3 get back to me.

Third call back from a vet in the twin cities I got his number off a ferret orgs. site. He said the same thing and as for chewing he said all ferrets chew and love to chew rubber and plastic. He said make sure you keep an eye on them and everything will be fine. He said the pvc is a very hard durable plastic and can take a beating. He said they are a lot more durable than the plastic toys and tubes made for cats and ferrets. He claims we will have no problems either. Two more calls to go.

he also said no glues or sealants. He said just pop an elbow on the end and they will stay attached. He has this type of pipe and the black slotted hose and the pvc stays together pretty well.

BadgersMama

11-03-2006, 07:36 AM

tropheusfreak

11-03-2006, 07:41 AM

just got another call and he says the same thing. They are fine and it will be safe for them. Make sure they are supervised so they are not eating it. He said always make sure your ferrets arn't chewing their toys so bad that they are actually eating them. Nothing toxic just worried about getting obstructions and he said that goes with all toys, tubs, blankets, carpeting and linoleum flooring, make sure they are supervised and replace any ferret items that are showing wear. So I have 4 vets all saying it is fine nothing toxic for the ferrets just make sure no one is eating their toys or tubes. I have one more vet that will be calling me back. I will post again after I hear from them.

David

I just recieved the last call. He said they are great for ferrets. The only drawbacks with pvc pipe is it pretty much has to be laid flat for them too slippery for slopes. He likes the heavy thick pvc pipe over the black drainage pipe or dryer vents. It is less likely to be chewed that the others. I am supposed to wash it very good before I use it because you never know what has touched it. I have chlorhexidine and he said that is a great product to kill off any bad stuff that may be on it. I can post these numbers for anyone who might want to call too make sure too.

Thanks

David

BadgersMama

11-03-2006, 08:14 AM

tropheusfreak

11-03-2006, 08:26 AM

I made some more calls this time to makers of the cages everyone houses their ferrets in. Here is what midwest says all trays, tubes, litter pans, toys, and pet carriers are all made from some form of plastic usually a pvc product number 3. These are known to cause problems when produced or burned only. They may lead to the formation of dioxins.
Marshall says the same thing. I'm waiting on the email back from super pet.

here are the list of vets I called:

785 233 3185
320 251 2494
952 432 9661
507 233 2500
507 388 4500

Here are some more numbers:

midwest

800 428 8560

super pet

847 956 1130

Marshall

800 292 3424

same answer from all these guys same materials as toys, tubes, and cages just be sure to clean it and not glue it. Watch for chewing as with any ferret product. Don't burn it or melt it and we will be fine.

LISAR

11-03-2006, 08:57 AM

My own general opinion of Pet Store Chains and their salespeople is not tooooo high. I listened to one once and almost killed my water dragon. It was by the grace of god another dragon owner came into the store and talked to me for about 5 min . Needless to say my dragon and her/his (not quite sure) siblings are just fine 2 years later, and still growing !! :hmmm:

JuniorsMommy

11-03-2006, 09:09 AM

I have to play the devils advocate here. I'm still not 100% sure PVC is the way to go. Bare with me here... I'm only trying to make sure your kids are safe!

http://www.besafenet.com/pvc/newsreleases/nyc_news_release.htm
http://blip.tv/file/89094
http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/content/usa/press/reports/pvc-the-poison-plastic.html
http://www.besafenet.com/pvc/
http://www.besafenet.com/PVCDisposalReport_2-Column_R6.pdf

Great links!!! I am going to call my vet right now and see what he has to say about pvc.

Edit: My vet will get back with me in about a half hour or so.....I will post what he says when he calls me back.

Sasy

11-03-2006, 09:36 AM

The kiddos and I visit our vet in about an hour & a half. If I remember I'll ask her. Right now I'm all stressed about fasting my ferrets...I think it has been harder on me than them.

tropheusfreak

11-03-2006, 09:42 AM

I didn't ask any pet store employees these questions. I asked vets and then I call Midwest cages, Super pet cages, and Marshall. I called the companys that make cages for animals and got good feedback. The pet carriers we use or pet taxis are all made out of pvc plastic too I guess. I just got an updated call from Marshall. They have also found out that if the pvc is cut around the animal or humans it can cause respritiory problems because of the tiny particles. So if you are working with plastic use a mask when cutting. Also I use rubbermaid and sterilite tubs to house my snakes in and I use a soldering iron to melt holes in them I shouldn't do this indoors either. It has to be done in a garage or outside. Those can be cancer causing too just like burning or melting the pvc pipe.

I also found out the water bottles I use in my mice and rat breeding cages are all made out of the same pvc and the plastic crocks for food are the same pvc. They all chew these thing and eat the plastic. I'm switching over to ceramic water bowl and food dishes. A little more work but I don't need problems with my colony eating chunks of plastic. I guess small pieces work themselves out but big pieces get stuck and cause obstructions. So I have been told numerous times today to keep a close eye on our new baby ferrets when we get them because all their plastic toys and blankets and stuff can cause obstructions that might have to be surgically removed. I have been told to replace all worn toys with new ones. Or ripped or shredded blanket or towels. I visited a shelter where the woman had pieces of linoleum over the wire floors and shelves of her ferret cages and every vet I talked to today said thats a very bad idea to use that in the cages.

JuniorsMommy

11-03-2006, 10:10 AM

I am a "better safe than sorry" kind of mommy to all of my furry kids!!!! I only use the tubes and tunnels that are made for them.I wouldn't want to unknowingly hurt them! They have ventilations holes every so many inches so my babies can get fresh air even while in the tunnels/tubes.They also come apart for easy cleaning which is very important to maintain a healthy fuzzy. As for water bottles and plastic food crocks I don't use those either.I use the ceramic bowls from petsmart or petco I can't remember which one it's been so long ago that I bought them.

To me pvc pipes just aren't worth the risk!

tropheusfreak

11-03-2006, 10:33 AM

There is no risk with the pvc pipes small ventilation holes can be drilled in them too. The ferret tunnels you buy and the ferret toys you buy are all made with the same materials. I contacted midwest cages, super pet, and marshall today and got all the same answers. The piping is totally safe even safer than the black tubing or dryer tubing a lot of people use. Again it is the same materials cages, toys, litter boxes, pet carriers everything we buy for our animals are all plastic the same plastic the tubes are made from. I wouldn't use anything harmfull either thats why I called 5 different vets today and 3 of the biggest animal cage and supply makers. I got very good input from all of them.

LISAR

11-03-2006, 10:38 AM

Well, the I's have it.

We dont use PVC pipe stuff with our ferts.

Polyvinyl Chloride is not exactly recommended for ferrets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride#Phthalate_plasticizers

tropheusfreak

11-03-2006, 10:43 AM

BadgersMama

11-03-2006, 10:51 AM

Interesting second link Lisar. Thank you. If hospitals are stopping the use of PVC because of the leaching of DEHP, I sure the hell wouldn't use it for my kids! Human or furry!

tropheusfreak

11-03-2006, 10:55 AM

all three companies I contacted today said they use polyvinyl chloride in their products so the toys you buy for your ferrets has pvc in it so does the cages and litter boxes. everything that these 3 companies make has some pvc in it.

could this be the reason that a lot of ferrets have problems with cancer

rats and mice included.

BadgersMama

11-03-2006, 11:00 AM

If it was known to be harmful to animals Midwest would not use it in their cages, super pet wouldn't use it in their cages tubes, toys, and other supplies, and marshall wouldn't use it either. I called all three companies today and got they all said use it but do not burn or melt it. Everything you buy for your ferrets has some pvc in it they said. Cat toys ferret toys, litter boxes, cages, tubes and tunnels from the pet stores, pet taxis, water and food dishes, water bottles, everything they make has pvc in it. And they claim there has never been a problem with any animals getting sick from any of their products.

Sure they would... its called marketing. Big companies are out to make a buck, not everything they manufacture is safe, that's why you as a soon to be ferret parent need to do the research. It's very sad, but the truth. All the information we have given should have swayed you away from using PVC.
Take a look at Marshall for example... the treats they put out for ferrets... they contain a high amount of sugar. Sugar is NOT safe for ferrets, but the make it anyways. Look at cigarette companies... smoking is NOT safe, but they still make them… It’s all about making a buck!

karybear

11-03-2006, 11:56 AM

hmm so basically on everything you buy from the company you are running the chance of getting your ferret sick..if the stuff from pvc is in cages and other supplies and toys we are still running that chance..so basically we shouldnt get anyting for the ferrets that is made out of this stuff? dang i need that ferret nation ASAP

BadgersMama

11-03-2006, 12:07 PM

Phil

11-03-2006, 12:34 PM

Sure they would... its called marketing. Big companies are out to make a buck, not everything they manufacture is safe, that's why you as a soon to be ferret parent need to do the research. It's very sad, but the truth. All the information we have given should have swayed you away from using PVC.
Take a look at Marshall for example... the treats they put out for ferrets... they contain a high amount of sugar. Sugar is NOT safe for ferrets, but the make it anyways. Look at cigarette companies... smoking is NOT safe, but they still make them… It’s all about making a buck!

i stopped using the bandit treats because of advice i learned here in this community. bandit loves those TF chicken treats anyway, so i give him those once in awhile, because they are made of pure chicken and NO SUGAR!

i'm a little suspicious of these companies that sell stuff for ferrets that they guarantee is harmless but really isn't. i don't know about those marshall chewie star things either. bandit seems to digest them pretty much ok, but i don't see why marshall makes a [product that gives ferrets funny poop!

marshall has that "ferret guarantee"...i have never heard of any company anywhere "guaranteeing" a LIVING CREATURE!!! and if they supposedly "guarantee" their ferrets, WHY sell products that may or may not be good for them, like those sugary bandit treats and those chewie things???

since when is a loving lovely wonderful little ferret a piece of "merchandise"??? :( it's very sad. but maybe i'm being paranoid. marshall farms makes an awful lot of money off of ferrets and related supplies, and it remains mind boggling to me that they may or may not manufacture things that make ferrets possibly sick!

can it be they want to sell more ferrets??? a ferret is NOT an inanimate object...it is a wonderful soft little living creature.

that's why online communities like this are so important...u can get first hand knowledge of what works and what doesn't from alot of people, and with information, u can make your own educated decision.

Bandie Bear MAMA

11-03-2006, 05:16 PM

for the pipe thingy..i use the dryer hose..they lov it..one goes in the other follows..

karybear

11-03-2006, 05:52 PM

i stopped using the bandit treats because of advice i learned here in this community. bandit loves those TF chicken treats anyway, so i give him those once in awhile, because they are made of pure chicken and NO SUGAR!

i'm a little suspicious of these companies that sell stuff for ferrets that they guarantee is harmless but really isn't. i don't know about those marshall chewie star things either. bandit seems to digest them pretty much ok, but i don't see why marshall makes a [product that gives ferrets funny poop!

marshall has that "ferret guarantee"...i have never heard of any company anywhere "guaranteeing" a LIVING CREATURE!!! and if they supposedly "guarantee" their ferrets, WHY sell products that may or may not be good for them, like those sugary bandit treats and those chewie things???

since when is a loving lovely wonderful little ferret a piece of "merchandise"??? :( it's very sad. but maybe i'm being paranoid. marshall farms makes an awful lot of money off of ferrets and related supplies, and it remains mind boggling to me that they may or may not manufacture things that make ferrets possibly sick!

can it be they want to sell more ferrets??? a ferret is NOT an inanimate object...it is a wonderful soft little living creature.

that's why online communities like this are so important...u can get first hand knowledge of what works and what doesn't from alot of people, and with information, u can make your own educated decision.

Im quitting w/ the bandit treats too im gonna try the totally ferret but my little ones really could care less about treats or not..so im to worried but yea i agree with you communities are GREAT! i bet if i didnt have this i would be in a world of sh*t

Phil

11-04-2006, 06:42 AM

Im quitting w/ the bandit treats too im gonna try the totally ferret but my little ones really could care less about treats or not..so im to worried but yea i agree with you communities are GREAT! i bet if i didnt have this i would be in a world of sh*t

we would be making alot of mistakes, and probably shortening our ferret's lives considerably. i'm giving the bandit treats to chuk, and will just use the TF treats only for bandit. he greatly prefers them anyway. :)

ferretmommy

11-04-2006, 01:30 PM

I apologize for not chiming in sooner, but I MUST agree that these ferret toy/cage/food manufacturing companies do not always look at the best interest of a ferret thoroughly.

Reason I say this is they know that ferret owners will always be looking for new and amazing things for their furkids.. Given that they come up with ideas, consider R & D (research & development costs), and marketing/profitiblity--pure business aspects.

Case in example: Marshall Farms Octoplay

Quote from: http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0508&L=ferret-search&T=0&P=21219

Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:21:27 -0400
From: Lisa Oestereich <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Marshall Farms Octoplay -- DEATH TOY

Hello FMLers,

I saw this "new item" at the ferret depot and ordered it for the kids. I
never buy Marshall's stuff, but in a moment of weakness and trying to
find new toys for the kids, I broke down. And shame on me for doing
so...

The inside of this toy has FOAM in it. So I called the FD and told them
that I was sending it back and that they should take it off their site
since it's DANGEROUS. And they replied that the calls started to come
in on Friday complaining about the foam, so they put a warning in the
description:

Quote from the FD site:

Add some tunneling playtime with the Octoplay. Great for use in the cage
or in the playpen. Comes in a bright red pattern with 5 arms to tunnel
through. Each arm measures approximately 13" long by 4.5" diameter with
an exit hole. The Octoplay head is approximately 13" wide by 9.5" high.

"The Ferret Octoplay contains foam rubber. If your ferret is an
aggressive chewer please monitor the use of this toy with your ferret
to avoid foam rubber ingestion."

And I told them that the warning wasn't good enough -- and how many
ferrets could die from this stupid toy.... I mean how many people will
actually LOOK INSIDE this toy before they give it to their ferrets? And
what ferret WOULDN'T destroy and claw foam?

They said that Marshall's had already been in touch with them and that MF
was ANGRY at FD for putting the warning on the toy in its description.

So HEY -- our toy kills your ferret? Too bad, so sad -- but we have
another ferret we can sell you.....

Lesson learned -- I will NEVER buy anything from MF again. And someone
at MF should lose their stinking job for putting such a horrendous toy
on the market.

DON'T BUY IT......
End of quote..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aside from the foam rubber and potential obstruction.. there is and should be concern that ferrets can/may get "stuck" in the octopus legs depending on the size of the ferret..

For the record- I bought this toy because it is so cute and my ferts are small and aren't chewers/diggers. However, I WATCH closely when I let them play with it to ensure there is no sign of foam rubber pieces and ensure noone gets 'stuck'..

Marshall Farms of all companies is the best example ot prove the point that not all toys/food/cages are made with the best interest of a ferret. My kids are Marshall kids, and I give them Marshall Premium food (with Totally Ferret mixed in), but not everything they sell is admirable.

My opinion is "better safe than sorry". Although my kids generally aren't chewers/diggers they still do it on occasion. I previously bought the colorful Super Pet flexi tubes and they have put holes in it.. Needless, I won't be buying them again and now stick with the hard ones and have just bought the fabric one to try out..

Theoretically and financially PVC pipes sounds like a great idea, but I wouldn't want to try pvc pipes because who knows how many chemicals those things have been exposed to from the moment they're made to the time they get to the consumer.. Also, even if you "wash" those things away with a specific product.. again, there's more chemicals and I'm sure they are not labeled "Safe for Children/Pets".

Also, drilling holes also then takes the finish from those areas and then will expose the inner materials (dust) and given the sensitivities of a ferret's respiratory system, I definitely wouldn't want to use it.. I read the postings about the responses from vets and companies, and it was great to contact them and get some feedback-but then I think about these things and would rather be safe than sorry.. :yes:

tropheusfreak

11-04-2006, 01:51 PM

I am not going to use the pvc piping I checked it out today and it is very heavy and cumbersome. I am going with the black slotted drainage pipe. I got 100 ft for 22.00. There are elbows and tees that can be added to that too. I'm can't find dryer tubing that doesn't have really bad fumes coming from it so I might order the stuff made for ferrets.

KokosDaddy

11-04-2006, 05:06 PM

Here's the long version of the negative aspects of PVC,

"Many Vinyl products contain additional chemicals to change the chemical consistency of the product. Some of these additional chemicals called additives can leach out of vinyl products. Plasticizers which must be added to make PVC flexible have been an additive of particular concern.

Because soft PVC toys have been made for babies for years, there are concerns that these additives leach out of soft toys into the mouths of the children chewing on them. Vinyl IV bags used in neo-natal intensive care units have also been shown to leach DEHP (Bis(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate), a phthalate additive. In January 2006, the European Union placed a ban on six types of phthalate softeners in toys (See directive 2005/84/EC). In 2003, the US Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) denied a petition for a similar ban in the United States[1]; however, in the USA most companies have voluntarily stopped manufacturing PVC toys for this age group or have eliminated the phthalates. In a draft guidance paper published in September 2002, the US FDA recognizes that many medical devices with PVC containing DEHP are not used in ways that result in significant human exposure to the chemical[2]. However, FDA is suggesting that manufacturers consider eliminating the use of DEHP in certain devices that can result in high aggregate exposures for sensitive patient populations such as neonates. However, alternative softeners have not been properly tested to determine whether they are more or less safe. Other vinyl products, including car interiors, shower curtains, flooring, etc., initially release chemical gases into the air. Some studies indicate that this outgassing of additives may contribute to health complications, but this information is preliminary and further study is needed. PVC comes under many terms as Petro Vinyl Common (another scientific name)

According to some medical studies, the plasticizers added to PVC may cause chronic conditions such as scleroderma, cholangiocarcinoma, angiosarcoma, brain cancer, and acrosteolysis. PVC has been used in many products for many years and still there is not proof of significant harmful effects from exposure. There have been studies, some cited in this article, that indicate "links" with certain medical problems and exposure to PVC products. These links deserve additional study.

In 2004, a joint Swedish-Danish research team found a very strong link between allergies in children and the phthalates DEHP and BBzP, commonly used in PVC[7].

Alternative plasticisers are being developed but in many cases these alternatives remain significantly more expensive and their technical performance varies. It is also worth noting that some, though not all, of the alternatives pose significant health risks."

To add to this, most plastics used in households are not PVC, they are PTE (Polyethylene plastic), which is a food grade plastic that does not emit gasses the way that Polypropylene (ABS) plastic and PVC do. Ever noticed that film on the inside of your car's windshield after a warm day? That's the gas that's released by your dash and interior when heat is added to a closed environment.

Most coatings on cage bars are vinyl, not polyvinyl chloride - another chemical version of vinyl. PVC water pipes aren't usually exposed to air for delivery of water to a receptacle for human use. Any gaseous emission would immediately be released to the air. Your water is safe, because it is exposed to available atmosphere, and the gas is released. When a ferrets is playing in a tube, it has no choice but to fill its tiny lungs with whatever air happens to be inside the tube.

In my own opinion, the savings of using any products to save yourself a few dollars isn't worth the possible harm that could be caused to your pets. Ferrets live short enough lives as it is. Anything that may shorten their lives more, isn't worth using - and its not worth finding out...

karybear

11-04-2006, 06:49 PM

Yea its soo not worth learning the hard way! trust me now i know! not from PVC pipe tho..that stuff im not even touching..

BadgersMama

03-16-2007, 12:14 PM

Thread bumped for new member Nikaila. Please read page 4, post #38. Information on the Octoplay.

Nikaila

03-16-2007, 01:05 PM

Thank you SO much for the bump of this thread and the point in the right direction.

I'm So glad I didn't buy this thing!

BadgersMama

03-16-2007, 01:07 PM

Thank you SO much for the bump of this thread and the point in the right direction.

I'm So glad I didn't buy this thing!
Anytime - that's what I'm here for!